Oh my gosh, lol, that’s so not what I expected. It really made me laugh for a minute there and then my mind started working through all the horrible ways things could go wrong from this. I think I’m going have to go read me some WWII alt history now.
Question about the time travel rules in the Charlieverse:
1) Can you interfere in your own timeline? Or are you playing by Dr Who rules where a giant creature emerges from a rip in time to consume everything?
2)Would altering the world that Charlie is from alter Charlie?
Also, bravo Charlie. Way to rub it in Leo’s face, not just in 1945 but for the rest of human history.
1) Yet to be determined, and an important question in the story. In other words, I have the answer, but I can’t give it yet. You will find out, though.
2) Logically speaking, I would presume it would have to, because then, by necessity, it is not the same world any more. Though I am not of the school that if a butterfly flaps its wings in another direction, your entire reality collapses.
Actually, IMO history is largely self-damping…that is, most changes get smoothed out/completely smothered, and have no lasting impact. Now, of course, WWII is massive, and has at least 3 or 4 massive implications:
a) The formation of Israel
b) The rise of the Soviet Union as an aggressive, paranoid power
c) The re-energization of the US, and its consequent rise to global power
d) The Cold War
There are many other points, such as the transformation from an agrarian society to an industrial society…but in many cases these were ongoing, and WWII simply accelerated things. The 4 points above, tho, were NOT trending.
Interesting ideas to consider, certainly. 🙂 Cough.
I think at very least B would continue, given that most of the worst damage and attacks of the Germans were in well full swing at that point. The only question is if Russia would then, given retreating German armies, do exactly what the German propaganda suggested and make a massive wave back, taking territory and punishing the Germans in kind for their imperialistic aggression.
Shit, that might make a good st – er, nevermind!
For A, there is still a decent chance that Israel would form, thinking about it. I know that though the concentration camps were not as bad as they would get, Poland was certainly being decimated, with Jews in the center, by that point in history. A lot would come out, and certainly, had Roosevelt known Israel was to be in the history of note, he might make it a policy goal. Not sure.
C seems inevitable given the secured resources by any resolution to WW2, given our victory, though in this timeline, Japan is still a major threat that isn’t coped with. (Like most Americans, Charlie has a blind spot for the pacific campaign given the horrid atrocities of the holocaust and how they stick in our minds much more than Midway, not to diminish either).
Either way, damned good, interesting, well-thought out points!
Charlie’s playing it by ear, and he’s not nearly the history buff I’ve been, which is to character later (as in INRICTI, there is the idea of whether or not good intentions are sufficient to justify the changes they make).
If I had his power, I would certainly start with Stalin before Hitler, but the thing is, I wouldn’t stop. I just wouldn’t stop. I’d crack the world in two trying to make it better, because I feel bad shit pretty deeply and want vengeance for the good. CHARLIE, however, is very monocular in solving problems, to his own detriment. Life sucks? Kill yourself. History sucks? Hit it with a stick. Acting is hard and unrewarding for ten years? Become a guidance counselor. His arc is rather centered, I do think, on whether or not he can find a way to change his own history, which is why I allowed myself to explore this often cliche trope. The relevance was too sharp for me.
a) I don’t think Israel gets formed. Please, don’t take me as anti-Semitic or anything; I’m not…but the formation of the state of Israel was unjustified usurpation of sovereign territory, and arguably the last act of dying imperialism. If the leaders aren’t emotionally and physically exhausted, I think a different form of solution can happen. Note that Israel, in the sense of a Jewish state, is NOT the whole issue; it’s the way the inhabitants were summarily thrown out.
on C, that’s after the *resolution* of WWII. That’s the point: WWII caused it. No WWII, no point C.
On B…Russia’s a bloody damn mess in 1940. Stalin’s hell-bent on driving them back to the Stone Age on his own. There is no army to speak of; IIRC, the Russians sent cavalry…HORSE cavalry…against the Panzers. (99% sure the Poles did; reasonably sure the Russians did as well.) By late 1941, at the time of Charlie’s intervention…hard to say. The drive to Moscow was just stopped on Dec. 6th, BUT Germany hasn’t thrown away its entire 6th Army in Stalingrad. I can see Russia annexing certain buffer states, but that’s all, assuming a German pullback starting in early 1942.
A story I’ll HIGHLY recommend: Roger Zelazny’s Game of Blood and Dust. IIRC, it’s in the Unicorn Variations anthology (and probably others). The premise: 2 uber-GLAs scan through ALL of recorded history, and pick a handful of points to intervene, with deceptively simple moves, but that will have major effects. Blood wants a vibrant, growing civilization; Dust wants obliteration. First read…gee, 20, 25 years ago? The Foundation novels discuss social forces, and what it really takes to change a culture in a meaningful way. Dickson’s Childe Cycle has themes along these lines. And there have been others. So this has been a semi-philosophical ruminative subject for me for some time. 🙂
I don’t want to speak, necessarily, to the fate of the inhabitants of what is now Israel, mostly because I want to avoid the politics of it and stick to the storytelling.
The reason I mention the Israel thing is simply because of the rule of a preconceived notion, if you will, in people’s behaviors and their beliefs.
For example, there are many people who point to and actively believe that the foundation of Israel was inevitable, because of their personal scriptures. Whether this is a chicken and egg debate or the hand of a God who manipulates fate is, to me, irrelevant to the debate (though I certainly have my opinions) of whether or not it would actually happen, given a reduction of the holocaust’s sting.
It begs the question assuming that history will stay the same if we change it, because by definition we can’t/haven’t/wouldn’t know if we did, but in this case there’s a mitigating factor, I think, that might cause many things to stay the same… the book Roosevelt has.
Roosevelt (in this scenario) buys into, completely, what Charlie gives him. If he learns that Israel is formed post-WW2, and if he learns that it is a positive thing for America (as most presidents seem inclined to believe since said war), he would actively fight to secure any ally he can facing the emerging threat (real or perceived) of the Soviet Union, perhaps. Or maybe he’d feel moral obligation. Or maybe, in this fictional universe, it’s something preordained by God with mysterious intentions. Though that’s all idle speculation, really, as I’m not planning on mentioning the fate of Israel for just that reason, it’s such a hotbutton and an emotional well that doesn’t service the character. As emotionally involved as I can and want to get involved in the story writing it, I wouldn’t confront that issue, as no matter how well I couched it it would seem like a grinding axe unintentionally, while the Hitler debate is pretty darned plain… Bad man die! This good!
I consider quite a lot whether or not, had I had better teachers, or more money, or if someone had killed a pivotal member of my family, or if I had cancer, or if I had to work three jobs, if I’d have not become a writer. Instinctively I feel it preordained despite a lack of belief in the supernatural. All the same, Israel is not a person emotional preference, it’s a historical occasion set off by multiple things without any one sure catalyst, though there are several that seem primary. But there are tertiary things that might affect it as well:
Is there a Berlin Wall in this world, for instance? Or does Russia just up and take Germany?
A Jewish populace, seeing the larger threat they had nearly encountered after a LONG history of oppression and attempts at genocide, would, to my mind, seek a sanctum of some kind, and a world in outcry would more than likely be sympathetic to that, though the wheres and the whys are difficult to imagine with accuracy.
On Russia’s revenge, I have this instinctive feel they’d just HAMMER the shit out of Germany, and Germany would find little sympathy for help on the part of a United States warring with Japan (Pearl Harbor still happened, even if we won in this scenario).
Russia’s push into Berlin would not be stopped by our forces, deployed toward the pacific, and calls for aid from Gemany (provided Russia didn’t go toward France) would probably be ignored until after the war ended in 1945, at which point Russia would have one HELL of a foothold in Europe and even Africa, and a resurgent army (though yes, Stalin, diabolical boob and bastard, is a critical x-factor).
Picture a Germany with a dead Fuhrer, humiliated, destroyed by feared Russian overlords (and yet in love with fascist style leadership), without Nuremberg trials to shame the populace and change mass opinion toward outlawing fascism. Mass flight from the sane populace who might have been killed in concentration camps or not gone along with the bad shit. You have a situation there where a country desperate for prosperity and leadership after decades of hell might ally under Stalin instead, and make the cold war hot. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and whatnot.
Curious stuff, certainly, though I have none of the answers, only speculation for fun.
One cannot “fix” history. There is nothing inherently wrong with history. It just is the way it is. What people are all so quick to call past “atrocities” are frequently paving the way for new development where might once have been stagnation.
LOL. Good for you, Prime, but I’m still pretty sure your time-travel shenanigans are going to bite you in the ass eventually.
Excuse me while I die of laughter. That is the silliest, pettiest, most RIDICULOUS thing ever! CP is the bomb, and so are you, Neil.
Oh my gosh, lol, that’s so not what I expected. It really made me laugh for a minute there and then my mind started working through all the horrible ways things could go wrong from this. I think I’m going have to go read me some WWII alt history now.
Question about the time travel rules in the Charlieverse:
1) Can you interfere in your own timeline? Or are you playing by Dr Who rules where a giant creature emerges from a rip in time to consume everything?
2)Would altering the world that Charlie is from alter Charlie?
Also, bravo Charlie. Way to rub it in Leo’s face, not just in 1945 but for the rest of human history.
Edit: 1941
1) Yet to be determined, and an important question in the story. In other words, I have the answer, but I can’t give it yet. You will find out, though.
2) Logically speaking, I would presume it would have to, because then, by necessity, it is not the same world any more. Though I am not of the school that if a butterfly flaps its wings in another direction, your entire reality collapses.
Actually, IMO history is largely self-damping…that is, most changes get smoothed out/completely smothered, and have no lasting impact. Now, of course, WWII is massive, and has at least 3 or 4 massive implications:
a) The formation of Israel
b) The rise of the Soviet Union as an aggressive, paranoid power
c) The re-energization of the US, and its consequent rise to global power
d) The Cold War
There are many other points, such as the transformation from an agrarian society to an industrial society…but in many cases these were ongoing, and WWII simply accelerated things. The 4 points above, tho, were NOT trending.
Interesting ideas to consider, certainly. 🙂 Cough.
I think at very least B would continue, given that most of the worst damage and attacks of the Germans were in well full swing at that point. The only question is if Russia would then, given retreating German armies, do exactly what the German propaganda suggested and make a massive wave back, taking territory and punishing the Germans in kind for their imperialistic aggression.
Shit, that might make a good st – er, nevermind!
For A, there is still a decent chance that Israel would form, thinking about it. I know that though the concentration camps were not as bad as they would get, Poland was certainly being decimated, with Jews in the center, by that point in history. A lot would come out, and certainly, had Roosevelt known Israel was to be in the history of note, he might make it a policy goal. Not sure.
C seems inevitable given the secured resources by any resolution to WW2, given our victory, though in this timeline, Japan is still a major threat that isn’t coped with. (Like most Americans, Charlie has a blind spot for the pacific campaign given the horrid atrocities of the holocaust and how they stick in our minds much more than Midway, not to diminish either).
Either way, damned good, interesting, well-thought out points!
Charlie’s playing it by ear, and he’s not nearly the history buff I’ve been, which is to character later (as in INRICTI, there is the idea of whether or not good intentions are sufficient to justify the changes they make).
If I had his power, I would certainly start with Stalin before Hitler, but the thing is, I wouldn’t stop. I just wouldn’t stop. I’d crack the world in two trying to make it better, because I feel bad shit pretty deeply and want vengeance for the good. CHARLIE, however, is very monocular in solving problems, to his own detriment. Life sucks? Kill yourself. History sucks? Hit it with a stick. Acting is hard and unrewarding for ten years? Become a guidance counselor. His arc is rather centered, I do think, on whether or not he can find a way to change his own history, which is why I allowed myself to explore this often cliche trope. The relevance was too sharp for me.
If we’re talking taking action in December ’41….
a) I don’t think Israel gets formed. Please, don’t take me as anti-Semitic or anything; I’m not…but the formation of the state of Israel was unjustified usurpation of sovereign territory, and arguably the last act of dying imperialism. If the leaders aren’t emotionally and physically exhausted, I think a different form of solution can happen. Note that Israel, in the sense of a Jewish state, is NOT the whole issue; it’s the way the inhabitants were summarily thrown out.
on C, that’s after the *resolution* of WWII. That’s the point: WWII caused it. No WWII, no point C.
On B…Russia’s a bloody damn mess in 1940. Stalin’s hell-bent on driving them back to the Stone Age on his own. There is no army to speak of; IIRC, the Russians sent cavalry…HORSE cavalry…against the Panzers. (99% sure the Poles did; reasonably sure the Russians did as well.) By late 1941, at the time of Charlie’s intervention…hard to say. The drive to Moscow was just stopped on Dec. 6th, BUT Germany hasn’t thrown away its entire 6th Army in Stalingrad. I can see Russia annexing certain buffer states, but that’s all, assuming a German pullback starting in early 1942.
A story I’ll HIGHLY recommend: Roger Zelazny’s Game of Blood and Dust. IIRC, it’s in the Unicorn Variations anthology (and probably others). The premise: 2 uber-GLAs scan through ALL of recorded history, and pick a handful of points to intervene, with deceptively simple moves, but that will have major effects. Blood wants a vibrant, growing civilization; Dust wants obliteration. First read…gee, 20, 25 years ago? The Foundation novels discuss social forces, and what it really takes to change a culture in a meaningful way. Dickson’s Childe Cycle has themes along these lines. And there have been others. So this has been a semi-philosophical ruminative subject for me for some time. 🙂
I don’t want to speak, necessarily, to the fate of the inhabitants of what is now Israel, mostly because I want to avoid the politics of it and stick to the storytelling.
The reason I mention the Israel thing is simply because of the rule of a preconceived notion, if you will, in people’s behaviors and their beliefs.
For example, there are many people who point to and actively believe that the foundation of Israel was inevitable, because of their personal scriptures. Whether this is a chicken and egg debate or the hand of a God who manipulates fate is, to me, irrelevant to the debate (though I certainly have my opinions) of whether or not it would actually happen, given a reduction of the holocaust’s sting.
It begs the question assuming that history will stay the same if we change it, because by definition we can’t/haven’t/wouldn’t know if we did, but in this case there’s a mitigating factor, I think, that might cause many things to stay the same… the book Roosevelt has.
Roosevelt (in this scenario) buys into, completely, what Charlie gives him. If he learns that Israel is formed post-WW2, and if he learns that it is a positive thing for America (as most presidents seem inclined to believe since said war), he would actively fight to secure any ally he can facing the emerging threat (real or perceived) of the Soviet Union, perhaps. Or maybe he’d feel moral obligation. Or maybe, in this fictional universe, it’s something preordained by God with mysterious intentions. Though that’s all idle speculation, really, as I’m not planning on mentioning the fate of Israel for just that reason, it’s such a hotbutton and an emotional well that doesn’t service the character. As emotionally involved as I can and want to get involved in the story writing it, I wouldn’t confront that issue, as no matter how well I couched it it would seem like a grinding axe unintentionally, while the Hitler debate is pretty darned plain… Bad man die! This good!
I consider quite a lot whether or not, had I had better teachers, or more money, or if someone had killed a pivotal member of my family, or if I had cancer, or if I had to work three jobs, if I’d have not become a writer. Instinctively I feel it preordained despite a lack of belief in the supernatural. All the same, Israel is not a person emotional preference, it’s a historical occasion set off by multiple things without any one sure catalyst, though there are several that seem primary. But there are tertiary things that might affect it as well:
Is there a Berlin Wall in this world, for instance? Or does Russia just up and take Germany?
A Jewish populace, seeing the larger threat they had nearly encountered after a LONG history of oppression and attempts at genocide, would, to my mind, seek a sanctum of some kind, and a world in outcry would more than likely be sympathetic to that, though the wheres and the whys are difficult to imagine with accuracy.
On Russia’s revenge, I have this instinctive feel they’d just HAMMER the shit out of Germany, and Germany would find little sympathy for help on the part of a United States warring with Japan (Pearl Harbor still happened, even if we won in this scenario).
Russia’s push into Berlin would not be stopped by our forces, deployed toward the pacific, and calls for aid from Gemany (provided Russia didn’t go toward France) would probably be ignored until after the war ended in 1945, at which point Russia would have one HELL of a foothold in Europe and even Africa, and a resurgent army (though yes, Stalin, diabolical boob and bastard, is a critical x-factor).
Picture a Germany with a dead Fuhrer, humiliated, destroyed by feared Russian overlords (and yet in love with fascist style leadership), without Nuremberg trials to shame the populace and change mass opinion toward outlawing fascism. Mass flight from the sane populace who might have been killed in concentration camps or not gone along with the bad shit. You have a situation there where a country desperate for prosperity and leadership after decades of hell might ally under Stalin instead, and make the cold war hot. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and whatnot.
Curious stuff, certainly, though I have none of the answers, only speculation for fun.
One cannot “fix” history. There is nothing inherently wrong with history. It just is the way it is. What people are all so quick to call past “atrocities” are frequently paving the way for new development where might once have been stagnation.